ISDF, Scion Balance in 1.3

[Hapi]

Please recommend me a recycle variant where the scions and ISDF are well balanced.
We are playing team strategy a lot, but ISDF winning 10/9 games.
Playing both ISDF is an option, but some of us like the scion race.

Thanks

[VSMIT]

So get better at Scion.

[Hapi]

 

[General BlackDragon]

Be a little more constructive. Take him into a game and share with him your love for scions. 

[VSMIT]

The main issue with Scion is that their stuff is just so damn expensive.  You really need at least 3 pools to do anything.  Early game, start with scavs and use Guardians early game as base defense.  When you have enough, start building up your base.  At some point, put up weapons spires to support your Guardians, and keep bringing in that scrap.  A good idea would be to do MPIs as Scion against ISDF on the higher difficulties to increase your skills.

[Hapi]

what to do against 2 rocket tank?

[VSMIT]

Have a bunch of units handy?  Rocket tanks are going to be your worst nightmare.

[bb1]

A titan.

Unless those rocket tanks have hornets.

Which they always will.

---------

Seriously, the sooner you have a titan roaming your base the better. Spire are good for ISDF players to mortar, which they also will and you will get insanely angry when you fly up in your warrior and they blast cannon you. Place a guardian under the lung for lung protection, but your spire will still be whiped clean.

Solution? Titan where the spire would go! For some reason, people are more reluctant to attack a titan than a gun spire. Maulers are aight too, but when the hornet rocket tanks come, life isn't fair sometimes.

[Avatar]

I'm no MP expert, but can dominate MPI or Instant as Scions without a LOT of trouble.  Depends a LOT on the map.  Scions need easy to reach pools, which they must take early and hold.  Grab as many as you can, and early on stay in Scouts to zip around the field to protect them.

If you can snipe enemy turrets on their way do so.  If not, try to get them destroyed on the way by ramming them or hitting them with your own already in place turrets.

The Mortar is a very powerful weapon in the hands of a human...  I think MDM gives ISDF too much early game power...  When playing as Scion I go nuts getting the base up as I race for Sonic.  This lets me repulse pretty much everything ISDF, especially taking care of those nasty Asstanks when they show up to eat my base.  They work great for tossing mortars back at them...

I haven't tried it in a few patches but Solar Flare was the ultimate killer for turrets, letting Scion Scouts own any ISDF turrets in the field unless there were a lot of them covering each other.  Bring in the Guardians and protect them against mortaring Sabres while you take and keep every pool.

Starve the ISDF...  did I mention you should take every pool and hold them?  Even if you can't keep the pool they're on, send a few Scouts to take out ISDF Extractors while you tease their defenses.  If you can't have the pool make sure they can't either.

Greenheart has some very nice extra towers for Scion, both Rocket and Mortar.   Very effective...  there must be a Recy variant with them in it...

Archers are defensive units.  Keep a few of them protected in the base to harrass those Asstanks, Rocket Tanks, etc..  Place them around the Forge, and if you can get them on top of the Recy or Forge or a Gunspire it not only works well but looks pretty cool, too.  (like a little hat...  )

Part of the key of playing as Scion is to think as Scion.  Hit and run, specific units against specific units.  Lancers against Mortarbikes, Maulers against buildings, Warriors against everything.  Good advice about the Titan, they are the Scion equivalent of the ISDF Walker, which is a walking GT.  Maulers are the Scion equivalent of the ISDF Asstank, meant to take down bases.

Scions need to dominate early game, take as many pools as they can, get a full base up as soon as they can, and then keep up the pressure on the ISDF...

-Av-

[bb1]

And if God Forbid the flying death comes towards your base, make sure there are plenty of popper archers stationed around. It is the only thing Scion that has the ability to even hit the bird.

Guardians will, too, but only on certain maps like Chill where the elevation lets them. And only after the payload is on its way home.

[TheJamsh]

Never underestimate the lancer, ESPECIALLY in swarms against thinks like rocket tanks. Lancers have an extremely weak image signature, which can be used to your advantage against any unit carrying missiles, and rocket tanks will suffer because of this.

Personally, i prefer lancer swarms against assault tanks & rocket tanks purely because of the power they have. They only cost 55 scrap, and already they carry the more powerful scion rocket weapon. Never use multi-lock, its not powerful enough and the AI waits too long to release its shots. Always stamp an absorbtion shield on it if you plan on base assaults or you are getting hammered with assault tanks. If its rocket tanks try a deflection shield, but keep swapping around, so you get the best of both worlds.

The titan has a LOT more firepower AND armour than a gun spire, and they can sit there just as long. Better yet they are not static, so you can move them out of the way of the incoming bomber. The key is scrap domination, with three-four pools you can EASILY dominate the ISDF, because it prevents them getting the bomber on a small map, but on a bigger map you have a bit more time to take it out and reclaim your pools.

The races in BZ2 are the best-balanced races in ANY game as far as im concerned, The trouble is most people are stronger with the ISDF, purely because its easier to get your stuff up quicker. The key thing about Scion is that they prefer to dominate with excessive units, rather than defensive buildings. They have this central hive in which they sprawl out from, but it doesnt expand into a massively defended area.

Never underestimate Archers and Lancers. Archers can be positioned WAY out of the way with poppers to take out bomber's, they just require a big scrap pump first. Its easier though to pummel the enemy with units constantly, to ensure that they dont get as far as a bomber bay.

[Hapi]

-In our games Scions never reach titans.
-titan is the only unit which you can leave on the battlefield (center of the map) and able to defend himself
- ISDF always reach Rocket tank, with 2 rocket tank they can lock down the center of the map for a while, so they can focus on destroying scavs on the sides.

Scions always defeated, we can switch teams, try another teams, sometimes 2 ISDF vs 3 Scion, doesn't matter...

Is there a recycle variant with better balance, or (if you think it is well balanced) a variant where the scions are stronger?

I never seen anybody to play team strategy game Scion vs ISDF on the net. Maybe it is not so well balanced?

[Zero Angel]

Scions are hard to get the hang of, but late-game they do tend to be stronger than the ISDF. In multiplayer strat, it is best to use the following strategy.

- Always try to hold a minimum of 3 scrap pools (the 'green' part of the scrap meter generates income at 1/3 the rate that the yellow portion does)
- Have additional scavengers on the field to collect loose scrap, and to replace lost scrap pools
- Scions don't get good weapons until mid-game. Try to get a stronghold and go for quill, this will give you a fighting chance in dogfights and allow you to hit pools without morphing. If you are getting owned in human vs human dogfights, consider building a couple of sentries to help you out.

The ultimate challenge for scions is to survive long enough to tech up to arc warriors. Once they reach this stage, a properly piloted arc/gauss/blink warrior is unstoppable

Late game strategy can be comprised of a mix of the following
- Jammers can prevent enemy humans from marking targets within the jamming range for attack, and can protect your base vs human directed bombers and APC armies
- Titans supported by service trucks are difficult to kill
- Multiple human piloted maulers are effective against light to moderately defended outposts
- You can perform a 'spire walk', which is a slow advance that involves holding the field, and building gunspires further and further out from your base
- You can employ archers to shell ISDF bases, which is effective if they are protected by gauss turrets (behind hills) or gunspires

[Zero Angel]

what to do against 2 rocket tank?

It is VERY difficult to defend vs 2 rocket tanks, so I can understand your frustration there. The best thing to do is not let them get the rocket tanks in the first place, by playing aggressively and occassionally using turrets to attack their pools.

However, if you are ever in a situation where there is 2 rocket tanks and you don't have titans yet, then use teamwork to work those tanks over. One team member can distract them by circling the tanks and avoiding the shadowers while the other uses sonic blast, arc cannon, a mauler, or other methods to kill the rocket tanks. Deflection shields will allow you to survive longer vs shads, and thus do more damage vs rocket tanks. If you have blink, you can blink underneath the rocket tanks and blow them back from the blink explosion (or scatter any trucks they might have on them).

[TheJamsh]

Guardians also have a very low image signature, you may consider using those to defend against RT's provided you give them some backup.

Scion gun spires are notoriesly crap at defending anything, even themselves. There weapon is a strimmed-down arc cannon, and they are expensive. The only strong point they have is the high-turret position, so they CAN see further and have a longer range than most units, but an RT armed with Hornets and a couple of tailing service trucks will wipe out everything very quickly.

I WOULD suggest the GH recycler variant for its rocket spires if its irritating you that much. Its not a brilliantly balanced variant, and personally i find the Rockets Towers ridiculously powerful against nearly anything, but they will help you keep pools.

I would also suggest my own variant, as the races differ greatly and the scions benefit from stronger units provided you have the rescources, but thats not even out yet, and wont be for some time