ISDF, Scion Balance in 1.3

[TheJamsh]

Mauler armour was never weakened, just gun tower AI was improved.

And don't tell me you never got frustrated when an already-dead mauler was shot by gun towers for an extra five seconds while another mauler casually walks around and mows all of your GT's down...

People bitch to much

Gun spires are stronger vs lighter armour and more powerful vs heavy armour because they are not designed to repel assault units, the same way gun towers are not designed to repel herds of maulers. By the time the enemy has assault units you should be able to build more UNITS to counteract that, a titan is only 15 scrap more that a gun spire and gives you all and anti-assault protection you will need, AND its mobile.

The reason quill isn't available so soon is because its assault version is Fang, and that weapon is a beast, and beats the crap out of any chain gun. People forget the scions most powerful advantage is their morphing abilites. Every unit can fight combat units, but a warrior with the right weapons can make a much heavier dent in your buildings than a sabre tank armed with SP or blast.

[DarkFox]

Not a bad post Jamsh, but I disagree about fang... Fang isn't that good - it's only good on a mauler because of it's damage frontloading, and because the mauler has 2 of them. A quill ship should never morph, and scions biggest advantage isn't morphing, it's the mauler and blink.

sidesman - got a lot of points to address here...

I tried focusing on blink, but a non-upgraded warrior is weaker than a chaingunned scout. The main problem, that chaingun is soon avaliable and very strong.

You're getting ahead of yourself. Racing to blink is just one scion start, and you need more pools to carry it off...

While they're going for chain, can go for other things, depending on the opponents and the map.
1. Quill/Stasis scouts
2. EMP/Deflection warriors
3. Quill/deflection scouts
Basically, never risk number 2 unless you really, really know what you're doing. It's used to trap enemies using lasers so your team can ambush them, and unless your teamwork is excellent (basically requires voice communications and a team that practices together) then it's not worth trying.
Quill/stasis scouts, on the other hand, are a great general-purpose scion unit. They easily beat chain scouts for dogfighting, have better pool-hitting abilities than chain scouts (their ammo lasts longer), and don't ever have to morph. They also do ok against lasers.
Quill/deflection scouts are easy to reach, you get them before the isdf get lasers, and they eat chain scouts for breakfast. Trouble is, they die horribly to lasers, so quill/deflection is leaving yourself wide open, and if the ISDF get lasers you stand to lose a lot of scrap.
Going with any of those tech choices is very difficult against a decent ISDF team that know how, when, and in what quantity to use lasers, but in general provided teams are matched and your thugs are being careful you'll do ok.

Scion empty scout should be avaliable with shield as well.

No, they shouldn't. That would make them far too strong against ISDF, and allow them to rush your base and take it to pieces. Not to mention scion vs scion would allow no kills at all in the early game.

Sonic cannon should be available sooner, with stronghold for etc,

This would make the stronghold an instant-win for scions - you'd have blinking sonic/absorbtion ships before the enemy had blast, they wouldn't have a chance.

and why does stronghold need an upgraded Kiln?

So that it takes longer to get blink and maulers. Without requiring an upgraded kiln, you'd be building maulers while the ISDF are dropping off their chainguns, and you'd win the game easily.

Until scions doesn't reach upgraded antenna, they are useless.

Completely untrue. Blink, quill, maulers, and absorbtion shields are all incredibly good.

Quill should be available even sooner, since its even weaker than chain gun.

It's not weaker than chaingun - when it's fired out of a stasis scout, you've got more resilience and a lot more ammo.


Scions, as a race, are weaker than ISDf due to the very early game (ISDF can monopolise on the first dogfight to a crazy degree), but provided the scion team make sure the scrap from their scouts fall in their own base, they aren't far behind ISDF. I've played in perhaps 5 games, in the 10 years I've been playing BZ2, where scions lost to ISDF because of their racial problems. Most of the time it's because of bad commanders, and the rest of the time it's usually unmatched teams.

[TheJamsh]

NEVER forget the power of a human-piloted scout with sonic cannon. That weapon is very powerful in combat mode, and deals damage as well as it protects you at the same time. Although assault does no damage, a single scout has the power to wipe the road clean of incoming enemy assault units provided theres a nice lake nearby...

Unless of course theres a walker with blast in that stack, but how long can you keep 3 pools in a close-quarter strat and save up for the walker.

[VoodooChile]

I tried focusing on blink, but a non-upgraded warrior is weaker than a chaingunned scout. The main problem, that chaingun is soon avaliable and very strong.

well its better to also have a dower which will give u gauss and stasis but a warrior with plasma/ion/blink/absortion is pretty good if u ask me.
it doesnt even matter if u cant win a dogfight v a chainscout; u have blink, u can always get away, he cant.
that means if u win a fight, thats cool, if u loose thats allright too as long as u make sure u have enough ammo left to blink enough distance away.
if the base is protected by guntowers and not turrets; u can make a nice hit and run with that ship.
(although i mostly have a dower too when i start making warriors)

[Avatar]

I'll say it again...

If you're losing try looking at the way you're playing.  If you basically are playing Defensively then try going Offensive more.  Instead of building those GS's try defending your base for a bit in Tanks and get more buildings up and upgraded.  If you're playing Offensively and losing try working on your Defensive placements and backup for your buildings and units.  By that I mean get a Dower up and crank out some Healers before you go nuts attacking the enemy base, so you can heal everything up before the next attack wave.

I've found that when I lose consistantly it's because I don't want to change my ways...  when you get too set in your ways you lose flexibility and are sure to lose against a foe that's not afraid to switch tactics.

-Av-

[sidesman]

Ok guys, I will try to explain it from a different view. Most of you are very experienced player, in your case i agree this balance.
But there are many beginner of us, who cannot beat with a quill/statis scout a chaingunned scout. Perhaps a quill with deflection. We cannot use ion gun, only gauss. But gauss comes later than chain. And we die many times, and that's way a chaingunned empty scout is such an advantage for ISDF.

Even with blink we die, because of the damage of impact mostly. Because we are mortals, and dont play this game that often. But its a clever game, thats way we like it. Consider me who is just can beat an AI tank. Actually not always.

Iam happy that gun towers ai has been improved, but now 1 tower easily destroys 2 AI mauler, since they dont run, and once they hit anything they loose theirs swing.  They can have weaker armor as well, but its a nightmare to drive it, and I cannot get away from scouts.

I accept that titan can defend the base against heavy units, what i am supposed to do against 3 rocket tanks when iam far away from upgraded antenna??  I know that you can destroy a rocket tank with minigun, but after how many hours of gameplay were you able to do it? I cannot, and its frustrating that 2 rocket tanks destroys my gun spire. And iam also far away from archers.


"Until scions doesn't reach upgraded antenna, they are useless.
-Completely untrue. Blink, quill, maulers, and absorbtion shields are all incredibly good."
-None of us can use quill during dogfighting, and abs. shield is useless against chaingun.

And with assault sonic, yes indeed,  i could swipe rocket tanks, but rocket tanks are even earlier than sonic.  

Maybe there ought to be a rec. variant for beginners (or losers   )
And iam not bitching, just cannot see the point of combat ion gun, resin, acid cloud (requires all the ammo), combat EMP, multi-lock, swarn.....  How many of you use this?

[Zero Angel]

lol yea, i totally understand what you're saying. Scions have a VERY steep learning curve because of their early game lack of technology.

A lot of people are afraid to play scions due to their really obvious deficiencies. And it is difficult to use strategies if you're under a lot of pressure (teammates losing ships, pools and scavs dying, etc) The only thing you can do vs a strong ISDF team is keep playing and losing until you gain skill at using scion tactics and can tech up quickly.

As far as shielding goes, change it according to the situation. If you are fighting rocket tanks or straight up chain scouts then use deflection. If you are fighting blast or a lot of laser, then use abso. If you taking fire from a mixture of solid/energy weapons, then use stasis.

Combat ion is actually strong vs scouts if you can aim well (its like a mixture of chaingun/laser vs scout armor). In fact one of my favorite weapon configs in scout DMs is ion+rocket, because it works really well if you can get in close.

[DarkFox]

sidesman - I just wrote a large guide on the battlezone 2 board here. Give it a read. http://www.bzuniverse.com/forum/index.php/topic,10725.0.html

I hear your pain though - it's a hard game to learn, and trying to learn with scions is a world of trouble, because as a race they are all about playing on the back foot, holding on for your dear life, and looking for a strategic to claw your way back into the game with.

In short, I'd say that for a player of your skill the problem doesn't necessarily lie in scion vs isdf balance - it's more about not being able to beat a chain scout. If you can't beat a chain scout using a drone with quill + deflection, then you certainly can't beat a chain scout using a chain scout, and thus whatever the races involved, the game will be a loss for you.
The only answer to this is playing more games and getting better at fighting. Once you start coming near your potential as a human being, you might start observing weaknesses for scions, but until you are at the top of your game, there's a better way of playing scions - practice.

[sidesman]

Thanks the guide, it's useful indeed!

[bb1]

Forget wasting your sonic wave ammo on deflecting those pesky shadowers. It's much better server transporting your builder army into the enemy base and recycling their recy and factory while the gun towers panic at some third pilot pulsing it from the air. You will lose all love in this situation and you can be certain they will never want to play with you again 

[Zero Angel]

I must take this opportunity to express my love for the more utility-based sonic+emp warriors. The ability to attack guntowers (by deflecting their shots), move faster (by firing emp at the ground while moving), disable the enemy, and finish em off with sonic cannon is well worth the lower DPS and lesser ranged effectiveness from not going arc/gauss. Especially if they're mixed in with arc-gauss. Absolute nightmare for blast defended ISDF bases.

Also because sonic-emp have the same shot speeds, you don't really have to adjust your aim if you're fast-switching between them.

[Clavin12]

You'd think the isdf would be the ones with the utilities.

[bb1]

You'd think the isdf would be the ones with the utilities.

In the commando varient, they are.

[Dirty Rooster]

...just cannot see the point of combat ion gun, resin, acid cloud (requires all the ammo), combat EMP, multi-lock, swarn.....  How many of you use this?

Having read that again, COMBAT ion gun, meh. I agree. On paper it works, in game not so good.
Resin, acid cloud - stock archer is better.
multi-lock : an abomination. (but gets you WASP)

I do enjoy ASSAULT ion, and SWARM though.

[AHadley]

I would very much like to use the Neutron Gun in normal combat. It's a pretty nice weapon, I think its combat mode works much better than the Ion gun.